#22. Mental Health - Ryan Casey

“You know, it’s never going to get solved if you don’t bring it up. So just talk…”

Mental health at work: are we talking about it? Kickstart graduate Ryan Casey joins the podcast to talk about his experience opening up on male mental health, speaking out and being the change you want to see in the world. He also talks about his time training with Darius through the Kickstart Scheme, which lifted him out of long-term unemployment and into his current career, as well as dealing with imposter syndrome and launching his own podcast. The future is bright with people like Ryan in our workplaces - spend an hour with him here.

#22. Mental Health - Ryan Casey

“You know, it’s never going to get solved if you don’t bring it up. So just talk…”

• Click here to read the Show Notes

  • Ryan Casey is a graduate of the UK Kickstart Scheme and is currently working as Communications and Projects Assistant for A New Normal Ltd. He also co-hosts the Diversity on Screen podcast which can be found on Spotify. You can connect with him on LinkedIn @ Ryan Casey.

  • The blog post that Ryan wrote which we discuss in the episode can be read here: https://www.anewnormal.co/post/stigma-surrounding-men-s-mental-health.

  • Interested in hearing from young people on the Kickstart Scheme? We employed our whole team through the scheme last year, and featured them in several episodes of the podcast. Here’s one to get you started. 

  • If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health, there are many resources that can help, including this one from MIND: https://www.mind.org.uk/need-urgent-help/using-this-tool/

  • Audio mix by Hula & Co. Music.

• Click here to read the transcript

  Intro

  Darius Norell

  Welcome to this episode of What's your work? Deep conversation with Ryan. Brilliant guest talking about mental health, talking about the impact of being unemployed, and poor recruitment processes and employment practices. So yeah, for me, if you are unemployed or have been for a while, or have been through that, I think it's gonna be really, really helpful to listen to, if you're an employer recruiting people, you really, really want to understand like, what is the impact, like just a human cost of being unresponsive or having a process that's not very inclusive or caring. This is an episode to listen to. Hope you enjoy it, and look forward to hearing what you think.

  Conversation

  Darius Norell

  So welcome, Ryan, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.

  Ryan Casey

  No problem.

  Darius Norell

  And Harry who produces tells me you've got your own podcasts. So I'm looking to learn from you today as well, he can give me some tips on how I did when we when we get to the end. Now typically start off introducing my guests by my experience of them. And we met through when he joined the kickstart scheme for an organization that we were supporting. And he went went on to work for them. And as part of that we were doing what we call a radical employability training, people sort of think about their mindsets and how they're showing up and what's important to them and all that kind of stuff. And you attended a bunch of those different trainings. And so my experience of you it was okay to share my experience with you from from that.

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, absolutely.

  Darius Norell

  So I would describe you as someone who's thoughtful, like reflective. I want to say something like sincere don't mean that in a sort of, like wants to, you know, kind of inquiry, I guess, curious, maybe that somebody would like curious and yeah, wanting to wanting to learn how to do that. I'll stop there. How does that how does that fit?

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, that's pretty pretty apt actually. Yeah.

  Darius Norell

  Anything you'd add to that you feel like?

  Ryan Casey

  Now, I don't want to talk about myself like that?

  Darius Norell

  Well, you're in the wrong place for that. That's exactly what we're going to be doing a lot of. So What's Your Work is about exploring the world of work for you, how are you seeing it? What are you seeing also in yourself to work on? So would you be up for sharing a little bit of your journey for those of people that don't know you yet? Like, before kickstart kind of what you're up to eat a lot of people in a really tough space for quite a long time. Had pandemics and isolation. I like what was can you share a little bit your journey into work as it was for pre kickstart into kickstart?

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, absolutely. So 2019 I was the beginning of 2019. I was part time employed at a retail job. Partway through the year, I kind of had a mental breakdown because they didn't treat me right. They I didn't I didn't get holiday. I was always refused it. So kind of had a serious mental breakdown, quit, and then was unemployed. All throughout the pandemic up until 2021. Really, and it was definitely a tough time.

  Darius Norell

  Wow. So we got we got really sorry to hear that. And yeah, that's that's a boat. Both are tough, right. So to have that experience, obviously deeply affected. You saw it, you know, not treated well by an employer and then to go to have that into a pandemic, where, obviously a lot of people found very hard, many people getting furloughed laid off. So you had maybe maybe, I guess, by the time we met these two years, not not working. So yeah, about that. Yeah. And at what point did you start applying for jobs again, I have actually had a period where you didn't like what work you do you recall that kind of when?

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, so it was it would have been a couple of months after I quit. So because I yeah, I wanted to get back into work right away. Have, I kind of I want to say my mental health stabilized for a bit and I was in the right space to start applying for jobs and hopefully get back into it. But it 2019 Even before the pandemic was a quite a hard time for employment, and then heading into, like, 20 in February, March of 2020. It just, it just, there was none. It was non existent.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah. And it's okay to ask that, that. So, you sort of had a tough time with mental health really went down? Stabilize that. Okay, I want to work, but we stopped applying didn't get any of those jobs. Did that have an impact on your mental health? Again? Are you able to go? Yeah, how was it?

  Ryan Casey

  Oh, absolutely. It had an impact. It was obviously, it's always disheartening to apply to something that you wanted, and then to either not hear back from them at all, or, or do get like, a decline. So yeah, it was, especially that, that period of time, it was quite an extended period of time to be unemployed. It was quite new for me. So yeah, I felt, honestly, I felt quite useless. And it really did impact my mental health more.

  Darius Norell

  So you had this, sorry to keep repeating it? And okay, well, I got myself back together, let me let me You know, I want to work on contribute want to be part of something. And just either just not hearing back from employers, or just getting kind of generic declines? You say, almost had a bigger impact. That's the second time was like, Oh, my gosh, I can't even I mean, I'm useless like nobody, nobody want. Yeah.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah, that's, I mean, again, like, it's sort of my hearts opening, like, I'm just reached, you know, just just feeling that, what that experience must be like, and for it to be an extended period of time. And I don't I haven't researched this stuff. But someone who has done a lot of work in this area has said that, that having a long period of unemployment is one of the like, was the top three worst things that can impact, you know, mental health, you know, you think about all the things that could happen to somebody in many, many difficult experiences, that that that is kind of like from a from a sort of mental scarring, it can be a huge, it can be who things are really feel for you. And thank you for being generous and sharing that and I'm sure many people listening will will kind of resonate will have different versions of that same story. And for employers that are listening. You know, you've kind of heard me speak a different set, you know, like, is this? How do we really take care of people that are coming through our processes in a proper way rather than, you know, just just focusing on people? I've hired someone, it's like, yeah, what about the other 100 people that you rejected? And I'm hoping, you know, people listening to this can just really get a sense of yeah, this, this is real, like it has a real impact on people. So thank you for being generous and sharing that.

  Ryan Casey

  No problem. I'm coming to terms with talking about my mental health journey. Obviously, it's still stigmatized, and it is. It needs to be talked about more, especially for men as well. So we've just had men's mental health month, I think, and I wrote up a little blog about just generally, the stigma and terminology on men's mental health. So yeah, check out a new normal page.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah, lovely. So that's a new normal, and what have you What do you I mean, can you share some of what you like? Let me just a couple of highlights from from the blog, and people kind of whet people's appetite and we'll put a link to it. Absolutely. People that want to really go there, dig into it. What

  Ryan Casey

  if I just quickly look at. what did I write about? Mental Health?

  Darius Norell

  And just while you're doing that, I mean, it just to chime in that the stigma, you know, that's what I was gonna my learnings, like, the stigma is what is so dangerous, right? Like being able to admit it, talk about it, ask for help get help. When there is so much support out there, often at a time where we don't even feel like we deserve help, but want to ask for help and know how to like, but there is a huge amount of support. So yeah, for anyone in a tough place. Like it's there are people out there who really want to help and can help. Absolutely, yeah. What have you got on in terms of

  Ryan Casey

  so yeah, I wrote about, essentially more alongside the terminology that men face when they admit they have mental health like So, while I've had before is man up, which we all know, Manning up doesn't cure mental health? Yeah. So there is a lot of like negative terminology associated with mental health. And yeah, it's just yeah, I asked a colleague of mine now at work, what he's experienced as well, in terms of opening up about his mental health, and then also getting not necessarily backlash, but you know, like, people questioning why this, this strong male figure had these health problem mental health problems.

  Darius Norell

  So yeah, rather than being kind of a, although great that you raise this as like that you're supposed to be you know, someone who's capable, you shouldn't you shouldn't have mental health issues, or exactly you do. And it's kind of a, it's kind of an old story, right? Or archetype of the sort of Hero Man, that, you know, no matter how difficult things get, it's like, it's like I can, I'll cope with it. And it's, I mean, old as in both old has been around a long time and old and like, it's out of date, right? It's, I think there's at least growing consensus, that's not such a healthy, sustainable way to be or true, like, because we're all facing things, which are difficult, you know, however, well, we're doing, we have difficult moments, and some of those moments become more than a moment and periods and challenging, and then at some point, sometimes they can become overwhelming, can be overwhelming for a moment, where it can be overwhelming. And suddenly, it's like, I lose my confidence, and then this, suddenly the world closes in. And what seems possible or available, you know, really becomes reduced. So great, great that you're sort of waving the flag, talking about your own experience, and also sharing it here. So I'm really, really appreciative that you're, that you're doing that. So talk a little bit then about sort of getting into work, at what point so the pandemic sort of, obviously, was, we're never short. But how long that was gonna go on for or was it is a summer where we were still in it, but not not in lock downs, and so on. But you will you apply for jobs all through that time, or at some point you so because there's no point there's nothing out there or kind of how was your experience?

  Ryan Casey

  So I was pretty much in applying throughout the whole pandemic, pandemic, there were, bumps were probably my mental health wasn't the best. And so that was reflected on, you know, the drive to apply for jobs and stuff. So it was it was on and off, but it was all throughout the pandemic, I was looking, yeah.

  Darius Norell

  So what changed in terms of getting the job that you did get

  Ryan Casey

  everything going from such a toxic workplace before to one where they they nurture me, and they, they want me to progress as much as I want. And, you know, they're all willing to do what's best for, for me. It's just been like a whole world of difference.

  Darius Norell

  And how it so take us through the journey of actually even getting the job like what was you know, what was different? Do you think that meant you even got this job versus other ones that you'd applied for?

  Ryan Casey

  Okay, so it's actually so my employees know this, that it was actually sent to me by my by mistake. So I was signed on at Job Center and the Job Center. woman, she, she misread what it was meant, meant, because I'm doing a degree in it. And she read communications, and obviously, it was different communications aspects. So she sent it to me and I applied for it. And I got an interview within like the week, I think it might have been even in the next day or so. And in the interview, it was like a really nice interview to begin with. It was all open. I disclosed that I had mental health issues. They loved it as in like that, I was able to tell them that because they provided us such like a safe space to say that to them. I came off the interview, I think I got a text message that day or the day after saying that, that we would like to hire you. And I was like, Oh, wow, that was that's like the fastest process that I've ever seen. And then a few months after joining on to them, they admitted that they were all in the call afterwards.

  Darius Norell

  And he's the one that's hiring. Like, but yeah, it was really weird. I've never experienced that before. So really, again, you know, I guess for employers listening or people involved in recruitment, like the, the opposite example of like saying really put in a really positive process, which left you feeling great. I guess I'm thinking built confidence even just in the way it all happened. And an employer that was able to create a space for you to talk about, hey, you know, I've had some mental health challenges and be accepting or understanding or go welcoming, like great credit. You're talking about it? Let's, let's go forward and do some good work together. And funny, I guess, funny at some level that you said that Job was never really supposed to be put in front of you in the first place. And yet,

  Ryan Casey

  yeah, literally, like, it was so serendipitous that it ended up to be this way. It's crazy.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah. And I guess let's go into the training side and experience you had is full disclosure. Mostly, I was probably leading that training. Maybe you had some training from some other other facilitators and trainers, but probably mostly, is that is that right? Mostly was me.

  Ryan Casey

  It was mostly you I had, I believe Ian? Yes, as well. And I think he's been on the podcast as well.

  Darius Norell

  Yes, that's right. Yeah. So you're in good.

  Ryan Casey

  So I had him for a couple of sessions, like one to one or one to two.

  Darius Norell

  Great. So you had some coaching? You had some coaching? Support from him. Lovely. So again, this this is this just to say it out loud, you can say whatever you like about your experience of it. And not only that, I would like you to say like what what your experience was, so no need to paint it in a better light than it was or worse, like, just like, yeah, just love to hear things that you found useful things that you knew, like, I never really, you know, you always should have gone like this. I never really seem to get it or like, yeah, so I'd love to hear what was what was your initial experience of who the first first times we were together? Or?

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, yeah. So obviously, the first time I joined on, there was like, so many faces that I didn't know didn't recognize. And it was at a time where it was quite isolated. Because obviously, we were either locked down or just coming out of lockdown or so seeing so many faces after a year or two of not seeing anyone was, it's obviously anxiety, driving, and stuff like that. But you quickly, like adjust to it. You'll see to get put through to like different smaller groups, breakout groups with them, and you can talk to them get to know them a bit. So that was that was a nice experience with that. There's, there's one bit of not advice, but like one tactic that I took away from that, that I remembered now, is that always talk to your employer. If something's bugging you, if something's not right, bring it up. Always talk to them. Communication is key. You know, it's never going to get solved if you don't bring it up. So just talk to them.

  Darius Norell

  Right? So yeah, even even because you've got a perception of something, they may be unaware of it, they may be have a totally different view of it. And unless you can even start to raise it as a thing, then then as you say, it's difficult to solve and how they engage in that conversation will tell you a lot about oh, it's a good place for me to be or not. Right. So it's great to hear that. And what was your impression of me? And again, you can be like, I'm curious, like, because it Yeah, just honest, honestly, that those first time, second time, whatever, what were you? What's your impression?

  Ryan Casey

  So I got that you were very patient. You would you would wait for people to say, to either speak up themselves, or there's always that time in groups like that, where the mentor the leader, pick someone instantly to speak their mind. But you You did, you took your time to, you know, let people bring up the confidence to speak up. So that was one thing that I kind of liked about how you drove it. You You seem like a very smart man. So yeah, that's that's my initial perception of you. And I think it was true.

  Darius Norell

  It's kind of Thank you appreciate that. And yeah, it's, it's, you know, from my perspective, sometimes in those moments and you've got a group and you're either opening a space for someone and we're on zoom right away, please speak to someone or say something or even maybe I've called on someone and sometimes people take a while right to Thinking about whether they're going to say something, maybe gather their thoughts, and it can seem like excruciatingly long on due to be in silence and waiting? And wondering sometimes like, okay, is this is someone gonna say something or they're gonna say something and just having having just holding on for me to swap me out of Holland so lightly of like, I actually really do hit want to hear what you've got to say, and I'm happy to wait. And if it takes a moment or two or 10, that's okay. And I would love to hear, like, what's, you know, what's your experience of whatever it is? We're working on talking about? So?

  Darius Norell

  And I, yeah, I personally, I feel that's a really important part of the work because it's, to me, it's sending a signal everyone's valued, which they are, but it's also you know, and, and everyone's contribution is valuable, whatever the start point, however, like, silly or stupid or unthought through, they think what they've got to say is or even what they're saying, actually is, like, it's a helpful start point of, okay, now you verbalize something, they How does that sound what you want to improve on it, or build on it or change it? Like, it's, you know, for me, it's such a deep part of making connection, and believing in people, right, believing in their capacity to be brilliant, and my company's called people and they're brilliant. So that's, that's really, you know, I don't I don't need to make a decision about someone's capacity, or I can just give them the space to show up in a way that hopefully enables them over time to be at their best. And whatever pace they're ready to, to do that. So thank you for recalling that as it were. And then anything? Like if you were to summarize to someone like what what your sense of like, what was the training about? Or like, what are the what was the purpose of it? Or what how would you describe it? But yeah, I'd love to, you know, how do you describe it? Like, what, what would you say about it?

  Ryan Casey

  I think it's it's giving young people the tools to better themselves, in their everyday life, actually, as well as their employment, and possibly employment skills. So I think that's kind of the the baseline description of what that was, that was

  Darius Norell

  lovely. And anything you took away, or that you found interesting, as a person that you saw your show, you shifted your mindset, like, what was your experience? Like? Oh, my gosh, that's a different way of looking at it. I'm going to try that or I like that, or

  Ryan Casey

  Yes. So there was one little activity where I can't remember exactly, but it was talking about not setting alarms, was it sounds

  Darius Norell

  like a no alarm clock?

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah. I tried that. And it was, you know, it was a bit weird to to wake up without an alarm. Obviously, I don't know a lot of people always do wake up with alarms. It's though, it's how they wake up. So trying to wake up naturally, at eight o'clock or seven o'clock is, it wasn't, wasn't easy, wasn't fun. But it it got me into a pattern where I am awake before my alarm now. So I don't need to wake up with an alarm.

  Darius Norell

  Wow. Okay. Well, I love that I love the hearing the outcome of that. And for those who are curious about no alarm clock, we've got a whole podcast just dedicated to it and hearing people going through what Ryan's has described during the experiment, which was, yeah, just kind of looking at most of us are many people are waking up with an alarm clock, it's kind of a brutal way and kind of, like, versus that is my, my philosophy was, I don't, I want to I want to be interested in what I'm doing in my life. And if I can only wake up with an alarm clock, that that's maybe a sign that I'm not doing what I need to be doing. So let me live my life without an alarm clock. And if I'm find myself really sleeping in a struggle to get out of bed to do what I want to do, well, that's a great sort of piece of feedback that I can do. Okay, I need to find a different some different work because clearly, I'm not, you know, up for doing really what I'm doing. And so that's kind of been doing that I guess, then 3030 odd years or so. You were using long clock. What did you What did you shift in terms of like, Did you set them in particular intention or kind of how did you how did you set up or what what changed? Do not to not to leave. And

  Ryan Casey

  so I did just a week basically of, of just not setting an alarm, and trying my absolute best to wake up at seven or eight or depending on the day. And yeah, it was hard, very hard. But I think just with anything, practice is always the best thing to do. And then once you get hold of it really comes naturally, I think, I think your, your natural alarm clock kicks in, where you start realizing what time it is, without even knowing.

  Darius Norell

  It's amazing, isn't it? I mean, I don't always view but I just love that. Sort of, as you say, it's almost like inviting your brain body system to go like, okay, look, you've got some capacity here. But after a few days, it can really come online, you go like, Oh, I could begin to trust like, you know what time it is somehow, some way and you wake me up at the right time. And and Yeah, what else? Have you noticed about it? How do you feel in the morning when you when you're waking up?

  Ryan Casey

  Still not a morning person? That hasn't changed? I don't think it will change. I still need coffee in the morning. Yeah. So not much has changed in the morning. Just just getting up earlier on time.

  Darius Norell

  Okay, well, we'll take that as a win. So that's one shift. You describe what else? Yeah, what else have you noticed has shifted in your mindset or approach or perspective?

  Ryan Casey

  I think just thinking about myself better, if that makes sense. Yeah, way. So I suffered a lot with imposter syndrome. Coming on to work. For a new normal, it was surrounded by an imposter syndrome. I thought, everyone, everyone's all better than me. And classic classic impostor syndrome stuff. And it took me a while and a lot of that, like, just mindful thinking that I am a valued member of the team. I'd bring my own, like skills and stuff to the team. It just like, just kind of it didn't go away. But it's, it's I can get into check.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah. And that's a really, I mean, it's just a really critical, I guess, reflection is that one of the goals of this work is to go from something that was overwhelming, unmanageable to manageable. Like, okay, I still have doubts. I still question myself, but it's not stopping me from getting into work, or it's not stopping me from doing anything. I'm just like, Oh, yeah. Yeah, of course, that's, that's there. But it's not, it's not overwhelming. So that's, uh, you know, sometimes we think, Oh, my gosh, I should go away completely, or shouldn't be there, or we got all sorts of, you know, like, idealized views about how things could be, and maybe over time, it will lessen and lessen. And, to such a degree, you don't even notice it? Maybe, maybe it'll just stay at a manageable level, like, and you've got the tools and techniques for reframing and going, Yeah, you know, what I am valued? And doing great work, even if some doubt comes up? And what would what would be a typical doubt or question that might be that might come up in your mind? When, when that would lead to you feeling like, Oh, I'm gonna be out of my depth here.

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, so I do a lot of project management at the moment. And I work on my manager as she's been in project management for 30 odd years, or, I don't know, she used to work at IBM, stuff like that. And so, me 25 year old with like, hardly any project management experience alongside her doing all this stuff, it can make me feel really, like doubtful about my ability, getting feedback from her and other people in the team. On my skills, and my work, and stuff, like my project management skills, is just is helping so much. I've recently like helped the team migrate to a project management tool. And I've been the lead on on the like, transition to that. So that's kind of helped. Make me realize that, yeah, I am valuable. My project management skills are there. I just need to put them into practice more and, and be more confident about those skills.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah. So is having the skills having confidence in the skills? So it's another it's another important aspect. And you mentioned that I said F word feedback. And you know, that's a big, big it's a topic I find fascinating how Why'd you with receiving the feedback? When? Yeah, tell me tell me about good. Go what happened at all?

  Ryan Casey

  I've let everyone know that a new normal that I hate receiving feedback, like, if you tell me something I've done is good. I'll shrink, shrink down and just throw it away like, but I am trying to get better with that. It's it's a journey. And it's not not easy to take on onboard. Good feedback.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah. And so even though you're referencing, like, Oh, I've had this feedback that was helping me really understand and value my skills and ability. In the moment, it's hard to process or hard to hear or kind of take on board or it feels awkward or odd. Or you sort of noticed yourself moving away from it, rather than towards it.

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, one, one little like, tip I would offer up is to keep a Word document of any good feedback you receive, I mean, if you want to keep bad feedback as well, just to balance out a bit, but just keep a record of the feedback you do receive. So you can look back at it. And and obviously, in the moment, you can't take it because you don't want to take it. But if you go back to it and look at it and read it like that, retrospectively. You have a better idea of it. Yeah, and you can possibly take it on.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah, wonderful thing is a lovely, lovely tip. Lovely practice. And do you date it so you know, when it when it was or you just just write the comment? Maybe it was I just

  Ryan Casey

  just put it in, so I can just scroll through it whenever I want. And just read some some good stuff about myself.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah, I love it. And I would say no need to put the bad stuff on there. I mean, it's like it's it's not it doesn't sound like you are but it it's because we do that to ourselves, most of us enough anyway, right? Like, all the criticism and like all doubts are not good enough. And like many of us, maybe most of us are carrying some level of that. And so that that the ability to have a resource that you can go to that's genuine like grounded, like yeah, these are all things that people have said that helps my brain remember reconnect with inclined towards outlook. Yeah, I've got capacity. Look at all the things I can do. I love it. I think it's a brilliant, brilliant practice. Should have thought of that myself. I love it. Thank you for sharing any other tips you've got? What else? What else are you finding is gonna be valuable? To do that helps you reframe or what?

  Ryan Casey

  Like spring to my mind at the moment.

  Darius Norell

  Okay, well, something comes up in the next 15 minutes. Just jump into it. Oh, yeah, actually, there's another thing that I do that could be useful. I love that. How will you, you said you're sort of working on the feedback piece. Anything you can share about what what are you doing? Or what or like, how are you developing yourself in that?

  Ryan Casey

  So I actually have coaching from a man named Graham Herbert. He kindly offered free coaching to our team, because he's a member of our team as well. We work closely closely alongside him. And yeah, he's, he's brilliant. And he's helping me work through these these issues with receiving feedback, the feeling of not being enough. And impostor syndrome is it's taking its time, but it's, it's helping. So yeah, I definitely recommend like any type of coaching in that sense, huh?

  Darius Norell

  Well, let's talk a little bit more about that. And just again, just to just yeah, that drip drip is really powerful. What What can people that haven't had coaching and you said, it hasn't actually come in because of coaching from from Graham, what what would you say? Not necessarily that they're specifically about the value of it or what what becomes possible through through some coaching.

  Ryan Casey

  So yeah, through coaching, I've kind of Oh, here's another tip. In fact, I've kind of personified my my doubts and my imposter syndrome into gargoyles and like stuff like that stuff that we know don't belong there. But it is there. So that doing that has helped quite a lot to just personify that feeling. And then because I'm quite I'd say quite political, but I like to debate about opinions and stuff like that and value Other people's opinion on other things as well. So what I do mentally is debate, the Gargoyle, why are you here? Are you needed at this very moment? Go away? If not, you know, sometimes they the doubts and the insecurities are there for a specific reason to make sure you are not going into something blindly and just believing it completely. So that's the debating aspect is just to, you know, a sense check, essentially.

  Darius Norell

  So there's sort of a sort of having those doubts and anxieties sort of become a character of or as you say, sort of, you can then have a conversation with and work with and go, Okay, well, you're here again, you know, is that something that you need? Or want? Or can I take, you know, just things not not not needed at the moment, but thanks for let me know you're there or like, is that? Is that what you're talking about?

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

  Darius Norell

  Great. Anything you'd like to ask me? Or that you would? either? Yeah, about anything? I mean, either about me or that? You'd be you're kind of curious about like, Hey, I'm working on this. I'd love to get some sense of, you know, an approach that might be useful or what yeah, what's anything?

  Ryan Casey

  Do you have any like tips on impostor syndrome? And dealing with that as well? I just want to get back as much.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah. So I really, you know, people talk about impostor syndrome a lot. There's not that there's no disease. And somehow I I, there's part of me, that really gets it. And there's part of me that just doesn't get it at all. I don't mean it doesn't, you know, don't have doubts about it. But it's kind of like if I'm, if I'm to tell me if this is like what I've got right about it, and what maybe it's not what I meant, what I'm missing. So let's imagine a situation I start having doubt like, someone asked me to do something. And I start having doubts about, Oh, am I up to the job or not? Right? And I can then build that into something that's quite big. Like, if I don't, if I don't sense check that somehow and I'm just in my own world, like that could spiral into something big, that then becomes maybe quite debilitating, and actually starts impacting my performance. So I start underperforming? And does that, is that what we're talking about? When is it or is it not? Am I missing something from that picture? Or?

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, so is, is quite like similar to what I experienced. But the initial phase of if you're unsure if you can do this specific task, that initial phase could be huge that can be already already absolutely huge, before the snowball

  Darius Norell

  great arrives at a level of intensity that already got a lot of energy. And so that might have been a really important thing that you've called out. Because my, my first go to like, if I'm experiencing that, or like maybe even before that happens is I really want to understand what good looks like. Like, so if I'm working, doing something for someone, I really want to get clear, like, what are you hoping for? What are you expecting? Right? So that's number one, like, let me get clear what what's wanted? What's the goal? And then I'm going to be as transparent as possible about what I understand, like, here's what I think I can do. Here's what I think I can't do, like, you know, does that feel like a good fit for what you're wanting? What are some potential risks? What you know, so just having rather than going like, oh, I can do that, although I can I can get into that mode sometimes. But like, I'm, I'm wanting to check, like, am I the right person for this? And I'm not just deciding by myself, I'm letting the other person also decide, and trying to give them as much information as possible. So we're making the best decision together about okay, like, is this something that I'm a good? I'm a good fit for? I don't know, I don't I don't take time to read, hey, often, I found myself in situations that were quite uncertain, quite ambiguous, really out of my depth in terms of my skill set. And it just worked out fine. Because that was just a known context. Yeah, there's lots of ones that we didn't we don't know, but we think you'll be you know, one thing you can't do any worse than the last person. Okay, great. So I've got plenty of permission to fail, like so maybe that's it, I'm not worried. Maybe this is part of it. I'm not worried about failing, or messing up or making a mistake. Like that doesn't loom large for me. I'm thinking oh, great. If I do that, I'm going to learn something and I'm committed to putting it right. It's a great idea. So what So as I make a mistake, I'm going to learn something important if I if I do that, and next time I'll be in better place. And I'm committed to doing like whatever I can to put it right. So I think the fear of so it's gonna be If I am an impostor who's like, Okay, well, it doesn't matter because I'll fail. And so what I'll learn something like so I think that takes the intensity out of it sometimes even like, oh, this will be fun. Now, I what I don't like is when there's a big mismatch in expectations like so someone's thinking like, oh, no, Darius, you're you're either said, you're amazing at this or I think you're amazing at this. And then I'm thinking like, oh my gosh, like, I really like that I don't think I can I know I got some liberty, but I can't do that, or I've tried that. But then that doesn't, that doesn't feel great for me. And like, I'm gonna do my best to close that gap by being transparent of like, can I just check, you see me to think I'm gonna do X Y Zed? I mean, I'm up for trying it just to like, I've never done that before. Like, is that okay? Like, do you want to get someone else in? who's done it? Or like, Are you up foot? And I'm no, great. Let's try it. Again. For me. It's just creating space to fail, like so. I mean, it's good that you asked me a question, I hadn't really realized, I think that's a very big part of it for me is being okay with failing, because then it takes all the pressure out, I don't need you know, it doesn't work, it doesn't work. We'll we'll we'll adjust well adjusted, we'll figure something out from that. So, so those two pieces of of what does good look like so I can have a good conversation or assessment together with the other person? Okay, am I a good fit with it and expectations? Said, and just making sure it's best to fail. Like I don't perform well, in situations where everything has to go, right. You know, in terms of being perfect, or, you know, I was doing I was doing some you know, I do a lot of speaking and presenting and I think I think, good and do those bits, quite mostly a big event quite high profile. And I'd been at this event for a couple of years running. And about half an hour before the event. They said, Oh, here's your script. I never used the script. And I and as it turned out, I'm terrible with the script. Like, I know, I always covered all the key points. But it was, you know, that goes into too much detail there was there was a sort of a lot of it's quite a public high profile event and one of the people there the scrutiny all the night, you know, it's like, you have to say this and you must, you know, say, a you're giving to ministry half an hour before the event like that. Be I am terrible, with a script, like I don't know. And I started to try and remember all the words and like, there wasn't even an auto he wasn't even asked if I've ever used an autocue. But like, I was just awful in that and just felt so constrained. So I didn't like it. I said yes. Because that like it was didn't seem like there was much opportunity to say anything else. But I was really stilted in my delivery, I wasn't enjoying it. Until thankfully, one of the key people that I actually the key person that we'd had the script in the first place had got delayed and couldn't turn up at the event at the time. They were supposed to be there. So we had to go off script at that point. At which point is like everything started working fine. I go through the script always like Okay, great. Let's, you know, could probably talk again and engage them was like, Oh my gosh, thank goodness for that. So that was a that was a, a I don't know if that's quite impostor syndrome, but a learning for like you have this conditions which can support me doing things well. And conditions which don't really being alive to that. And then if I'm in those good conditions, and I don't mind what happens if I fail, I fail, but when I'm out of my element, and that just it was it felt awful to be standing on the stage in front of you know, several 100 People that are high profile event. And at least to me performing well below what I wanted. And I think what was needed I think was pretty righted pretty rubbish job actually, to be to be frank, up until the point everything went off schedule. At that point, everyone started panicking, like, oh my gosh, how are we going to fill we got 20 minutes, we got nothing like, oh my goodness, now I can just make you know, I can just, I can feel 20 minutes, like it's gonna be nothing and it was gonna have the best time. And everyone thought I was amazing at that point, partly because I probably did such a bad job up to that point. And then by by comparison, everything suddenly went went really well. So sorry, I've been a bit rambley Tell me tell me what you've is anything useful? Or what I've said or kind of what have you got? What have you got from that? Yeah,

  Ryan Casey

  so the the aspect of you allow yourself room to fail is a thing that I struggle with. If I fail, it's like a big deal. It's huge. It's, you know, obviously is a is a path to learning. Like you can't learn without failing. Pretty much. I know that and I do it myself. I fail a lot and learn from it. But it's it's still a big deal. Even the smallest of like mistakes or failures is still huge for me.

  Darius Norell

  So I'm curious about, like, what do you hear me talking about and say, Okay, I love it. Like, it's nothing like what happens for you.

  Ryan Casey

  Jealousy? I have to say, I wish a failure wasn't as big as I make it out to be. So, yeah.

  Darius Norell

  Can you imagine that? I've had some big failures.

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, I mean, everyone, literally everyone does it. Everyone fails massively from time to time. But, yeah, we all get wrapped up in our own heads over. And it's hard to get out of.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah, I mean, let me take away that time to time I'm failing every day. Not I don't say practically everything. That's a bit that's a bit too strong. But I'm continually in, like, oh, you know, partly, I'm always trying to stretch myself like, so I'm always I'm always attempting things which are outside my ability, right. So that leads to a lot of failure. Because I'm interested in learning and growing and really seeing what's possible, I'm open to I'm more capable than I realize. And then if I get to find out what my capacity is, is to do things that I think I can't do, or I think there's no way. Now amazingly, a whole lot of times, it actually works, but I can do stuff that really seemed impossible. But most of the time, guess what the things we've seen when possible in that moment, they turned out possible, or at least not for me, like I couldn't, I don't know how to do it. But I learned a whole load a lot along the way. So that's, that's, for me, that's a really important potent part of me, like in terms of how I approach the world, and how I can feel relaxed in the world, because I am not ashamed, you know, if I am not one of those people that is able to sort of repeatedly deliver without making a mistake, like you could give me a, you know, a simple task, or even a relatively, you know, like, whatever level of task and be like, Okay, do that 100 times in a row, I'm not that person, like, I ain't gonna mess up. Like even even really trying, I'm gonna mess up like that, I'm just not set up for that kind of consistent performance. Like it doesn't, it just doesn't, you know, and if that's what's needed, like, day in, day out, that's not going to be a good fit. What I have a great fit for is, yeah, boundaries, real difficulty, real challenge, lots of intensity, or kind of, oh, my gosh, how we're gonna, how we're going to do this, like, I can rise to the occasion, you know, for a few times. And then it's like, okay, great. Like, I did what I needed to do for that. And now I'm, you know, and lots of times I mess up, but and being able to recover from that, and that not be the end of the world. Like, I'm not, you know, I'm much more comfortable in those situations. So maybe I'm, I'm, as much as I'm also looking for what's good. We talked about the setup of like, okay, what's good here? I'm also feeling into, how is how, okay, is it if I mess up? Like, what's your tolerance for failure, if I'm with a client, or an organization, or someone, and they've got a lot of anxiety about like, this is really got to go? Well, you know, and you just can't mess up on this one, then I really do my best to find space to put them at ease. Look, this may not go exactly perfectly, but just trust it's, you know, those bumps actually will be really helpful to build relationship or show what's you know, so I try and if I if I if there is opportunity to help that person have a bit more space, so that I can have more space, and it'd be okay to mess up because I do. And that's, I love the fact I mess up. But sometimes the mess ups No, that'd be your job, right? You got your job, someone made a mistake, and you got your job place. Amazing things happen from mistakes. And that, you know, that person who sent me that job could be going oh my gosh, I shouldn't have done it. No, I'm not gonna let you apply, you know, they could carry that really heavily and yet we've got this beautiful outcome of you got this what sounds like a wonderful experience that's been covered a really crucial time and been incredibly positive and nurturing and, and families were healing. I don't know if that's if that's okay or not, but it's like it feels like it's a healing experience to be working, contributing, with an employer that sensitive and able to use your brilliant skills and qualities.

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's a very good word actually healing. It was a very healing opportunity. From is a horrible job to unemployment to go into that it was it was perfectly timed in a way where it was exactly what I needed.

  Darius Norell

  Anything else you'd like to ask? And it could still be on impostor syndrome. Like if you don't feel like I've covered that, or there's other things like, Yeah, well, what about this? I'm happy to stay with it. And I'll be a bit more succinct, or anything else that you'd like to inquire about or ask about?

  Ryan Casey

  No, I think that impostor syndrome, conversation was really good. Actually. I'm always interested in hearing people's like perspective on it. Because so many people have it and suffer from it day to day without without telling people and I think obviously, like I said before, mental health needs to be talked about more. And imposter. Imposter syndrome is part of mental health. So yeah, the more we talk about it, the less stigmatized it is, the more we can deal with it and cope with it.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah, so that's actually given, you know, sort of sparked another thought, which is, so if we take impostor syndrome and take that as a sort of almost a literal thing, like, it's almost like I'm feeling I need to pretend to be someone that I'm not. And so if we let go of the pretending and just go, okay, like, this is me. I want to do a good job. If I'm not the right person might Don't use me like, well, I'll get out of the way or five. And I also when they find me, like, I'm, I, if that's if that's the, you know, I'd rather not pretend because pretending is exhausting and effortful. And, like this idea of I'm going to be found out I was like, no, like, this is me. Like, this is what I've got to bring. He's remembering energy and bringing commitment to learn. I've got I've done this before, I haven't done that before. Like, how's that, as you know, is that is that workable? What do you want to work with that? Great, okay, let's do something or, like, no, that's not what you need right now. Okay. I'd rather face into that. Okay, like, okay, it's not me, like, that's the key. It's not my ideal outcome. But I'd rather have that than having to pretend, oh, then I really can't, and I just didn't, I just had a bad day. Oh, my God, let me have another, you know, it's like, oh, my gosh, I that's to mine, I would find that it's just too much to carry. I'd rather face into my difficult situation of okay, yeah, I got to do some work to get up to a certain level of standard. If I want to be engaged in that kind of thing. Or there's something else for me to go out and find that I've got capacity to do that. It's going to be a better fit for someone like me. So that's, I don't know if that's too simplistic, just really. Just noticing anytime that pretense starts to come in, go, like, No, I'm not up for that. I just bring that into the open. And if it's a material issue, great, well, I'll clearly I'll need to do something else. And if it's not material, great, I can just be, I can just not pretend. And then that, for me brings a level of ease, you know, thinking that back to mental health and like they can relax and be happy and peaceful rather than in these tight moments, which can easily, you know, once we start playing around in our head, like, oh, gosh, and then we start noticing and our brains are greater than finding things to support ideas we've gotten suddenly find more evidence like, oh, they said this, does that mean, they think they're doubting my ability? Like, No, they wouldn't? Oh, they didn't give me that assignment. Does that mean they think they think now I'm no good as well, you know, and suddenly built up this picture that has a lot of energy and intensity, that is that kind of it only goes downward unless we take a really, you know, a moment to to reframe, or step back or somehow kind of go okay, like, what's going on here is this doesn't feel great. I needed to your point, I need to talk about this end with someone or maybe more than one person to help me get a sense of how I can be out of this loop or or spiral. So does that does that help? Or how did you hear that?

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, that does help. I think that will take a lot of practice to, to be into that situation, like mindset and situation. So hopefully, I can kind of get there at some point. Yeah, that was good.

  Darius Norell

  Cool. So let's do a little reflection. How's the conversation been for you?

  Ryan Casey

  Yes, it's actually really good. I was. I'll be honest, I was a little anxious about coming on. I didn't know what would we really be talking about? So yeah, but it's some really good conversation today.

  Darius Norell

  Thank you, although you've been an amazing guest. Give me some feedback as a you know, using your experience as a podcaster. You know, I'm relatively new to this. What tips can you give me your feedback? Can you give me

  Ryan Casey

  I think I think a big part of podcasting is just keeping the conversation flowing. And you've done that. It's we've been talking pretty much nonstop. And yeah, just just great conversation. If you have a great conversation with someone, you've got a great podcast. Easy as that.

  Darius Norell

  I love it. Well, that's a nice way to finish. And I feel like this has been a great conversation. Honestly, Ryan, thank you so much for taking the time being so generous in sharing so much of yourself. And yeah, I think there's a lot here for people to take inspiration from get heart from and yeah, thank you for being you and sharing so much of yourself.

  Ryan Casey

  Thank you for having me.

  Outro

  Darius Norell

  So reflecting on that conversation with Ryan and I think I use the word sincere to describe him and wanting to learn and for me that really came across and just just such a heartful showing of himself and now know what you how you found it. Like for me, it's like wanting to learn wanting to understand. And for me, that's just such a positive. Like, I'm working with scientists. No, it's like, it puts me in a really towards date. Like if someone just really committed to learning and sharing and self aware and yeah, I just, I find myself very open, wanting to support wanting to help and I think historically of being unemployed, incredibly touching, and many, many 1000s hundreds of 1000s of people have been in that situation over the last couple of years. So I hope you found it, sort of heartwarming healing. I'd love to hear your comments and also thoughts tips on impostor syndrome. Did I did they help with what I shared? Did I miss it? It's it's such a common topic and I I'd love to hear people's thoughts and ideas on it. I look forward to seeing what you're taking

  Intro

  Darius Norell

  Welcome to this episode of What's your work? Deep conversation with Ryan. Brilliant guest talking about mental health, talking about the impact of being unemployed, and poor recruitment processes and employment practices. So yeah, for me, if you are unemployed or have been for a while, or have been through that, I think it's gonna be really, really helpful to listen to, if you're an employer recruiting people, you really, really want to understand like, what is the impact, like just a human cost of being unresponsive or having a process that's not very inclusive or caring. This is an episode to listen to. Hope you enjoy it, and look forward to hearing what you think.

  Conversation

  Darius Norell

  So welcome, Ryan, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.

  Ryan Casey

  No problem.

  Darius Norell

  And Harry who produces tells me you've got your own podcasts. So I'm looking to learn from you today as well, he can give me some tips on how I did when we when we get to the end. Now typically start off introducing my guests by my experience of them. And we met through when he joined the kickstart scheme for an organization that we were supporting. And he went went on to work for them. And as part of that we were doing what we call a radical employability training, people sort of think about their mindsets and how they're showing up and what's important to them and all that kind of stuff. And you attended a bunch of those different trainings. And so my experience of you it was okay to share my experience with you from from that.

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, absolutely.

  Darius Norell

  So I would describe you as someone who's thoughtful, like reflective. I want to say something like sincere don't mean that in a sort of, like wants to, you know, kind of inquiry, I guess, curious, maybe that somebody would like curious and yeah, wanting to wanting to learn how to do that. I'll stop there. How does that how does that fit?

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, that's pretty pretty apt actually. Yeah.

  Darius Norell

  Anything you'd add to that you feel like?

  Ryan Casey

  Now, I don't want to talk about myself like that?

  Darius Norell

  Well, you're in the wrong place for that. That's exactly what we're going to be doing a lot of. So What's Your Work is about exploring the world of work for you, how are you seeing it? What are you seeing also in yourself to work on? So would you be up for sharing a little bit of your journey for those of people that don't know you yet? Like, before kickstart kind of what you're up to eat a lot of people in a really tough space for quite a long time. Had pandemics and isolation. I like what was can you share a little bit your journey into work as it was for pre kickstart into kickstart?

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, absolutely. So 2019 I was the beginning of 2019. I was part time employed at a retail job. Partway through the year, I kind of had a mental breakdown because they didn't treat me right. They I didn't I didn't get holiday. I was always refused it. So kind of had a serious mental breakdown, quit, and then was unemployed. All throughout the pandemic up until 2021. Really, and it was definitely a tough time.

  Darius Norell

  Wow. So we got we got really sorry to hear that. And yeah, that's that's a boat. Both are tough, right. So to have that experience, obviously deeply affected. You saw it, you know, not treated well by an employer and then to go to have that into a pandemic, where, obviously a lot of people found very hard, many people getting furloughed laid off. So you had maybe maybe, I guess, by the time we met these two years, not not working. So yeah, about that. Yeah. And at what point did you start applying for jobs again, I have actually had a period where you didn't like what work you do you recall that kind of when?

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, so it was it would have been a couple of months after I quit. So because I yeah, I wanted to get back into work right away. Have, I kind of I want to say my mental health stabilized for a bit and I was in the right space to start applying for jobs and hopefully get back into it. But it 2019 Even before the pandemic was a quite a hard time for employment, and then heading into, like, 20 in February, March of 2020. It just, it just, there was none. It was non existent.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah. And it's okay to ask that, that. So, you sort of had a tough time with mental health really went down? Stabilize that. Okay, I want to work, but we stopped applying didn't get any of those jobs. Did that have an impact on your mental health? Again? Are you able to go? Yeah, how was it?

  Ryan Casey

  Oh, absolutely. It had an impact. It was obviously, it's always disheartening to apply to something that you wanted, and then to either not hear back from them at all, or, or do get like, a decline. So yeah, it was, especially that, that period of time, it was quite an extended period of time to be unemployed. It was quite new for me. So yeah, I felt, honestly, I felt quite useless. And it really did impact my mental health more.

  Darius Norell

  So you had this, sorry to keep repeating it? And okay, well, I got myself back together, let me let me You know, I want to work on contribute want to be part of something. And just either just not hearing back from employers, or just getting kind of generic declines? You say, almost had a bigger impact. That's the second time was like, Oh, my gosh, I can't even I mean, I'm useless like nobody, nobody want. Yeah.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah, that's, I mean, again, like, it's sort of my hearts opening, like, I'm just reached, you know, just just feeling that, what that experience must be like, and for it to be an extended period of time. And I don't I haven't researched this stuff. But someone who has done a lot of work in this area has said that, that having a long period of unemployment is one of the like, was the top three worst things that can impact, you know, mental health, you know, you think about all the things that could happen to somebody in many, many difficult experiences, that that that is kind of like from a from a sort of mental scarring, it can be a huge, it can be who things are really feel for you. And thank you for being generous and sharing that and I'm sure many people listening will will kind of resonate will have different versions of that same story. And for employers that are listening. You know, you've kind of heard me speak a different set, you know, like, is this? How do we really take care of people that are coming through our processes in a proper way rather than, you know, just just focusing on people? I've hired someone, it's like, yeah, what about the other 100 people that you rejected? And I'm hoping, you know, people listening to this can just really get a sense of yeah, this, this is real, like it has a real impact on people. So thank you for being generous and sharing that.

  Ryan Casey

  No problem. I'm coming to terms with talking about my mental health journey. Obviously, it's still stigmatized, and it is. It needs to be talked about more, especially for men as well. So we've just had men's mental health month, I think, and I wrote up a little blog about just generally, the stigma and terminology on men's mental health. So yeah, check out a new normal page.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah, lovely. So that's a new normal, and what have you What do you I mean, can you share some of what you like? Let me just a couple of highlights from from the blog, and people kind of whet people's appetite and we'll put a link to it. Absolutely. People that want to really go there, dig into it. What

  Ryan Casey

  if I just quickly look at. what did I write about? Mental Health?

  Darius Norell

  And just while you're doing that, I mean, it just to chime in that the stigma, you know, that's what I was gonna my learnings, like, the stigma is what is so dangerous, right? Like being able to admit it, talk about it, ask for help get help. When there is so much support out there, often at a time where we don't even feel like we deserve help, but want to ask for help and know how to like, but there is a huge amount of support. So yeah, for anyone in a tough place. Like it's there are people out there who really want to help and can help. Absolutely, yeah. What have you got on in terms of

  Ryan Casey

  so yeah, I wrote about, essentially more alongside the terminology that men face when they admit they have mental health like So, while I've had before is man up, which we all know, Manning up doesn't cure mental health? Yeah. So there is a lot of like negative terminology associated with mental health. And yeah, it's just yeah, I asked a colleague of mine now at work, what he's experienced as well, in terms of opening up about his mental health, and then also getting not necessarily backlash, but you know, like, people questioning why this, this strong male figure had these health problem mental health problems.

  Darius Norell

  So yeah, rather than being kind of a, although great that you raise this as like that you're supposed to be you know, someone who's capable, you shouldn't you shouldn't have mental health issues, or exactly you do. And it's kind of a, it's kind of an old story, right? Or archetype of the sort of Hero Man, that, you know, no matter how difficult things get, it's like, it's like I can, I'll cope with it. And it's, I mean, old as in both old has been around a long time and old and like, it's out of date, right? It's, I think there's at least growing consensus, that's not such a healthy, sustainable way to be or true, like, because we're all facing things, which are difficult, you know, however, well, we're doing, we have difficult moments, and some of those moments become more than a moment and periods and challenging, and then at some point, sometimes they can become overwhelming, can be overwhelming for a moment, where it can be overwhelming. And suddenly, it's like, I lose my confidence, and then this, suddenly the world closes in. And what seems possible or available, you know, really becomes reduced. So great, great that you're sort of waving the flag, talking about your own experience, and also sharing it here. So I'm really, really appreciative that you're, that you're doing that. So talk a little bit then about sort of getting into work, at what point so the pandemic sort of, obviously, was, we're never short. But how long that was gonna go on for or was it is a summer where we were still in it, but not not in lock downs, and so on. But you will you apply for jobs all through that time, or at some point you so because there's no point there's nothing out there or kind of how was your experience?

  Ryan Casey

  So I was pretty much in applying throughout the whole pandemic, pandemic, there were, bumps were probably my mental health wasn't the best. And so that was reflected on, you know, the drive to apply for jobs and stuff. So it was it was on and off, but it was all throughout the pandemic, I was looking, yeah.

  Darius Norell

  So what changed in terms of getting the job that you did get

  Ryan Casey

  everything going from such a toxic workplace before to one where they they nurture me, and they, they want me to progress as much as I want. And, you know, they're all willing to do what's best for, for me. It's just been like a whole world of difference.

  Darius Norell

  And how it so take us through the journey of actually even getting the job like what was you know, what was different? Do you think that meant you even got this job versus other ones that you'd applied for?

  Ryan Casey

  Okay, so it's actually so my employees know this, that it was actually sent to me by my by mistake. So I was signed on at Job Center and the Job Center. woman, she, she misread what it was meant, meant, because I'm doing a degree in it. And she read communications, and obviously, it was different communications aspects. So she sent it to me and I applied for it. And I got an interview within like the week, I think it might have been even in the next day or so. And in the interview, it was like a really nice interview to begin with. It was all open. I disclosed that I had mental health issues. They loved it as in like that, I was able to tell them that because they provided us such like a safe space to say that to them. I came off the interview, I think I got a text message that day or the day after saying that, that we would like to hire you. And I was like, Oh, wow, that was that's like the fastest process that I've ever seen. And then a few months after joining on to them, they admitted that they were all in the call afterwards.

  Darius Norell

  And he's the one that's hiring. Like, but yeah, it was really weird. I've never experienced that before. So really, again, you know, I guess for employers listening or people involved in recruitment, like the, the opposite example of like saying really put in a really positive process, which left you feeling great. I guess I'm thinking built confidence even just in the way it all happened. And an employer that was able to create a space for you to talk about, hey, you know, I've had some mental health challenges and be accepting or understanding or go welcoming, like great credit. You're talking about it? Let's, let's go forward and do some good work together. And funny, I guess, funny at some level that you said that Job was never really supposed to be put in front of you in the first place. And yet,

  Ryan Casey

  yeah, literally, like, it was so serendipitous that it ended up to be this way. It's crazy.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah. And I guess let's go into the training side and experience you had is full disclosure. Mostly, I was probably leading that training. Maybe you had some training from some other other facilitators and trainers, but probably mostly, is that is that right? Mostly was me.

  Ryan Casey

  It was mostly you I had, I believe Ian? Yes, as well. And I think he's been on the podcast as well.

  Darius Norell

  Yes, that's right. Yeah. So you're in good.

  Ryan Casey

  So I had him for a couple of sessions, like one to one or one to two.

  Darius Norell

  Great. So you had some coaching? You had some coaching? Support from him. Lovely. So again, this this is this just to say it out loud, you can say whatever you like about your experience of it. And not only that, I would like you to say like what what your experience was, so no need to paint it in a better light than it was or worse, like, just like, yeah, just love to hear things that you found useful things that you knew, like, I never really, you know, you always should have gone like this. I never really seem to get it or like, yeah, so I'd love to hear what was what was your initial experience of who the first first times we were together? Or?

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, yeah. So obviously, the first time I joined on, there was like, so many faces that I didn't know didn't recognize. And it was at a time where it was quite isolated. Because obviously, we were either locked down or just coming out of lockdown or so seeing so many faces after a year or two of not seeing anyone was, it's obviously anxiety, driving, and stuff like that. But you quickly, like adjust to it. You'll see to get put through to like different smaller groups, breakout groups with them, and you can talk to them get to know them a bit. So that was that was a nice experience with that. There's, there's one bit of not advice, but like one tactic that I took away from that, that I remembered now, is that always talk to your employer. If something's bugging you, if something's not right, bring it up. Always talk to them. Communication is key. You know, it's never going to get solved if you don't bring it up. So just talk to them.

  Darius Norell

  Right? So yeah, even even because you've got a perception of something, they may be unaware of it, they may be have a totally different view of it. And unless you can even start to raise it as a thing, then then as you say, it's difficult to solve and how they engage in that conversation will tell you a lot about oh, it's a good place for me to be or not. Right. So it's great to hear that. And what was your impression of me? And again, you can be like, I'm curious, like, because it Yeah, just honest, honestly, that those first time, second time, whatever, what were you? What's your impression?

  Ryan Casey

  So I got that you were very patient. You would you would wait for people to say, to either speak up themselves, or there's always that time in groups like that, where the mentor the leader, pick someone instantly to speak their mind. But you You did, you took your time to, you know, let people bring up the confidence to speak up. So that was one thing that I kind of liked about how you drove it. You You seem like a very smart man. So yeah, that's that's my initial perception of you. And I think it was true.

  Darius Norell

  It's kind of Thank you appreciate that. And yeah, it's, it's, you know, from my perspective, sometimes in those moments and you've got a group and you're either opening a space for someone and we're on zoom right away, please speak to someone or say something or even maybe I've called on someone and sometimes people take a while right to Thinking about whether they're going to say something, maybe gather their thoughts, and it can seem like excruciatingly long on due to be in silence and waiting? And wondering sometimes like, okay, is this is someone gonna say something or they're gonna say something and just having having just holding on for me to swap me out of Holland so lightly of like, I actually really do hit want to hear what you've got to say, and I'm happy to wait. And if it takes a moment or two or 10, that's okay. And I would love to hear, like, what's, you know, what's your experience of whatever it is? We're working on talking about? So?

  Darius Norell

  And I, yeah, I personally, I feel that's a really important part of the work because it's, to me, it's sending a signal everyone's valued, which they are, but it's also you know, and, and everyone's contribution is valuable, whatever the start point, however, like, silly or stupid or unthought through, they think what they've got to say is or even what they're saying, actually is, like, it's a helpful start point of, okay, now you verbalize something, they How does that sound what you want to improve on it, or build on it or change it? Like, it's, you know, for me, it's such a deep part of making connection, and believing in people, right, believing in their capacity to be brilliant, and my company's called people and they're brilliant. So that's, that's really, you know, I don't I don't need to make a decision about someone's capacity, or I can just give them the space to show up in a way that hopefully enables them over time to be at their best. And whatever pace they're ready to, to do that. So thank you for recalling that as it were. And then anything? Like if you were to summarize to someone like what what your sense of like, what was the training about? Or like, what are the what was the purpose of it? Or what how would you describe it? But yeah, I'd love to, you know, how do you describe it? Like, what, what would you say about it?

  Ryan Casey

  I think it's it's giving young people the tools to better themselves, in their everyday life, actually, as well as their employment, and possibly employment skills. So I think that's kind of the the baseline description of what that was, that was

  Darius Norell

  lovely. And anything you took away, or that you found interesting, as a person that you saw your show, you shifted your mindset, like, what was your experience? Like? Oh, my gosh, that's a different way of looking at it. I'm going to try that or I like that, or

  Ryan Casey

  Yes. So there was one little activity where I can't remember exactly, but it was talking about not setting alarms, was it sounds

  Darius Norell

  like a no alarm clock?

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah. I tried that. And it was, you know, it was a bit weird to to wake up without an alarm. Obviously, I don't know a lot of people always do wake up with alarms. It's though, it's how they wake up. So trying to wake up naturally, at eight o'clock or seven o'clock is, it wasn't, wasn't easy, wasn't fun. But it it got me into a pattern where I am awake before my alarm now. So I don't need to wake up with an alarm.

  Darius Norell

  Wow. Okay. Well, I love that I love the hearing the outcome of that. And for those who are curious about no alarm clock, we've got a whole podcast just dedicated to it and hearing people going through what Ryan's has described during the experiment, which was, yeah, just kind of looking at most of us are many people are waking up with an alarm clock, it's kind of a brutal way and kind of, like, versus that is my, my philosophy was, I don't, I want to I want to be interested in what I'm doing in my life. And if I can only wake up with an alarm clock, that that's maybe a sign that I'm not doing what I need to be doing. So let me live my life without an alarm clock. And if I'm find myself really sleeping in a struggle to get out of bed to do what I want to do, well, that's a great sort of piece of feedback that I can do. Okay, I need to find a different some different work because clearly, I'm not, you know, up for doing really what I'm doing. And so that's kind of been doing that I guess, then 3030 odd years or so. You were using long clock. What did you What did you shift in terms of like, Did you set them in particular intention or kind of how did you how did you set up or what what changed? Do not to not to leave. And

  Ryan Casey

  so I did just a week basically of, of just not setting an alarm, and trying my absolute best to wake up at seven or eight or depending on the day. And yeah, it was hard, very hard. But I think just with anything, practice is always the best thing to do. And then once you get hold of it really comes naturally, I think, I think your, your natural alarm clock kicks in, where you start realizing what time it is, without even knowing.

  Darius Norell

  It's amazing, isn't it? I mean, I don't always view but I just love that. Sort of, as you say, it's almost like inviting your brain body system to go like, okay, look, you've got some capacity here. But after a few days, it can really come online, you go like, Oh, I could begin to trust like, you know what time it is somehow, some way and you wake me up at the right time. And and Yeah, what else? Have you noticed about it? How do you feel in the morning when you when you're waking up?

  Ryan Casey

  Still not a morning person? That hasn't changed? I don't think it will change. I still need coffee in the morning. Yeah. So not much has changed in the morning. Just just getting up earlier on time.

  Darius Norell

  Okay, well, we'll take that as a win. So that's one shift. You describe what else? Yeah, what else have you noticed has shifted in your mindset or approach or perspective?

  Ryan Casey

  I think just thinking about myself better, if that makes sense. Yeah, way. So I suffered a lot with imposter syndrome. Coming on to work. For a new normal, it was surrounded by an imposter syndrome. I thought, everyone, everyone's all better than me. And classic classic impostor syndrome stuff. And it took me a while and a lot of that, like, just mindful thinking that I am a valued member of the team. I'd bring my own, like skills and stuff to the team. It just like, just kind of it didn't go away. But it's, it's I can get into check.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah. And that's a really, I mean, it's just a really critical, I guess, reflection is that one of the goals of this work is to go from something that was overwhelming, unmanageable to manageable. Like, okay, I still have doubts. I still question myself, but it's not stopping me from getting into work, or it's not stopping me from doing anything. I'm just like, Oh, yeah. Yeah, of course, that's, that's there. But it's not, it's not overwhelming. So that's, uh, you know, sometimes we think, Oh, my gosh, I should go away completely, or shouldn't be there, or we got all sorts of, you know, like, idealized views about how things could be, and maybe over time, it will lessen and lessen. And, to such a degree, you don't even notice it? Maybe, maybe it'll just stay at a manageable level, like, and you've got the tools and techniques for reframing and going, Yeah, you know, what I am valued? And doing great work, even if some doubt comes up? And what would what would be a typical doubt or question that might be that might come up in your mind? When, when that would lead to you feeling like, Oh, I'm gonna be out of my depth here.

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, so I do a lot of project management at the moment. And I work on my manager as she's been in project management for 30 odd years, or, I don't know, she used to work at IBM, stuff like that. And so, me 25 year old with like, hardly any project management experience alongside her doing all this stuff, it can make me feel really, like doubtful about my ability, getting feedback from her and other people in the team. On my skills, and my work, and stuff, like my project management skills, is just is helping so much. I've recently like helped the team migrate to a project management tool. And I've been the lead on on the like, transition to that. So that's kind of helped. Make me realize that, yeah, I am valuable. My project management skills are there. I just need to put them into practice more and, and be more confident about those skills.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah. So is having the skills having confidence in the skills? So it's another it's another important aspect. And you mentioned that I said F word feedback. And you know, that's a big, big it's a topic I find fascinating how Why'd you with receiving the feedback? When? Yeah, tell me tell me about good. Go what happened at all?

  Ryan Casey

  I've let everyone know that a new normal that I hate receiving feedback, like, if you tell me something I've done is good. I'll shrink, shrink down and just throw it away like, but I am trying to get better with that. It's it's a journey. And it's not not easy to take on onboard. Good feedback.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah. And so even though you're referencing, like, Oh, I've had this feedback that was helping me really understand and value my skills and ability. In the moment, it's hard to process or hard to hear or kind of take on board or it feels awkward or odd. Or you sort of noticed yourself moving away from it, rather than towards it.

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, one, one little like, tip I would offer up is to keep a Word document of any good feedback you receive, I mean, if you want to keep bad feedback as well, just to balance out a bit, but just keep a record of the feedback you do receive. So you can look back at it. And and obviously, in the moment, you can't take it because you don't want to take it. But if you go back to it and look at it and read it like that, retrospectively. You have a better idea of it. Yeah, and you can possibly take it on.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah, wonderful thing is a lovely, lovely tip. Lovely practice. And do you date it so you know, when it when it was or you just just write the comment? Maybe it was I just

  Ryan Casey

  just put it in, so I can just scroll through it whenever I want. And just read some some good stuff about myself.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah, I love it. And I would say no need to put the bad stuff on there. I mean, it's like it's it's not it doesn't sound like you are but it it's because we do that to ourselves, most of us enough anyway, right? Like, all the criticism and like all doubts are not good enough. And like many of us, maybe most of us are carrying some level of that. And so that that the ability to have a resource that you can go to that's genuine like grounded, like yeah, these are all things that people have said that helps my brain remember reconnect with inclined towards outlook. Yeah, I've got capacity. Look at all the things I can do. I love it. I think it's a brilliant, brilliant practice. Should have thought of that myself. I love it. Thank you for sharing any other tips you've got? What else? What else are you finding is gonna be valuable? To do that helps you reframe or what?

  Ryan Casey

  Like spring to my mind at the moment.

  Darius Norell

  Okay, well, something comes up in the next 15 minutes. Just jump into it. Oh, yeah, actually, there's another thing that I do that could be useful. I love that. How will you, you said you're sort of working on the feedback piece. Anything you can share about what what are you doing? Or what or like, how are you developing yourself in that?

  Ryan Casey

  So I actually have coaching from a man named Graham Herbert. He kindly offered free coaching to our team, because he's a member of our team as well. We work closely closely alongside him. And yeah, he's, he's brilliant. And he's helping me work through these these issues with receiving feedback, the feeling of not being enough. And impostor syndrome is it's taking its time, but it's, it's helping. So yeah, I definitely recommend like any type of coaching in that sense, huh?

  Darius Norell

  Well, let's talk a little bit more about that. And just again, just to just yeah, that drip drip is really powerful. What What can people that haven't had coaching and you said, it hasn't actually come in because of coaching from from Graham, what what would you say? Not necessarily that they're specifically about the value of it or what what becomes possible through through some coaching.

  Ryan Casey

  So yeah, through coaching, I've kind of Oh, here's another tip. In fact, I've kind of personified my my doubts and my imposter syndrome into gargoyles and like stuff like that stuff that we know don't belong there. But it is there. So that doing that has helped quite a lot to just personify that feeling. And then because I'm quite I'd say quite political, but I like to debate about opinions and stuff like that and value Other people's opinion on other things as well. So what I do mentally is debate, the Gargoyle, why are you here? Are you needed at this very moment? Go away? If not, you know, sometimes they the doubts and the insecurities are there for a specific reason to make sure you are not going into something blindly and just believing it completely. So that's the debating aspect is just to, you know, a sense check, essentially.

  Darius Norell

  So there's sort of a sort of having those doubts and anxieties sort of become a character of or as you say, sort of, you can then have a conversation with and work with and go, Okay, well, you're here again, you know, is that something that you need? Or want? Or can I take, you know, just things not not not needed at the moment, but thanks for let me know you're there or like, is that? Is that what you're talking about?

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

  Darius Norell

  Great. Anything you'd like to ask me? Or that you would? either? Yeah, about anything? I mean, either about me or that? You'd be you're kind of curious about like, Hey, I'm working on this. I'd love to get some sense of, you know, an approach that might be useful or what yeah, what's anything?

  Ryan Casey

  Do you have any like tips on impostor syndrome? And dealing with that as well? I just want to get back as much.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah. So I really, you know, people talk about impostor syndrome a lot. There's not that there's no disease. And somehow I I, there's part of me, that really gets it. And there's part of me that just doesn't get it at all. I don't mean it doesn't, you know, don't have doubts about it. But it's kind of like if I'm, if I'm to tell me if this is like what I've got right about it, and what maybe it's not what I meant, what I'm missing. So let's imagine a situation I start having doubt like, someone asked me to do something. And I start having doubts about, Oh, am I up to the job or not? Right? And I can then build that into something that's quite big. Like, if I don't, if I don't sense check that somehow and I'm just in my own world, like that could spiral into something big, that then becomes maybe quite debilitating, and actually starts impacting my performance. So I start underperforming? And does that, is that what we're talking about? When is it or is it not? Am I missing something from that picture? Or?

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, so is, is quite like similar to what I experienced. But the initial phase of if you're unsure if you can do this specific task, that initial phase could be huge that can be already already absolutely huge, before the snowball

  Darius Norell

  great arrives at a level of intensity that already got a lot of energy. And so that might have been a really important thing that you've called out. Because my, my first go to like, if I'm experiencing that, or like maybe even before that happens is I really want to understand what good looks like. Like, so if I'm working, doing something for someone, I really want to get clear, like, what are you hoping for? What are you expecting? Right? So that's number one, like, let me get clear what what's wanted? What's the goal? And then I'm going to be as transparent as possible about what I understand, like, here's what I think I can do. Here's what I think I can't do, like, you know, does that feel like a good fit for what you're wanting? What are some potential risks? What you know, so just having rather than going like, oh, I can do that, although I can I can get into that mode sometimes. But like, I'm, I'm wanting to check, like, am I the right person for this? And I'm not just deciding by myself, I'm letting the other person also decide, and trying to give them as much information as possible. So we're making the best decision together about okay, like, is this something that I'm a good? I'm a good fit for? I don't know, I don't I don't take time to read, hey, often, I found myself in situations that were quite uncertain, quite ambiguous, really out of my depth in terms of my skill set. And it just worked out fine. Because that was just a known context. Yeah, there's lots of ones that we didn't we don't know, but we think you'll be you know, one thing you can't do any worse than the last person. Okay, great. So I've got plenty of permission to fail, like so maybe that's it, I'm not worried. Maybe this is part of it. I'm not worried about failing, or messing up or making a mistake. Like that doesn't loom large for me. I'm thinking oh, great. If I do that, I'm going to learn something and I'm committed to putting it right. It's a great idea. So what So as I make a mistake, I'm going to learn something important if I if I do that, and next time I'll be in better place. And I'm committed to doing like whatever I can to put it right. So I think the fear of so it's gonna be If I am an impostor who's like, Okay, well, it doesn't matter because I'll fail. And so what I'll learn something like so I think that takes the intensity out of it sometimes even like, oh, this will be fun. Now, I what I don't like is when there's a big mismatch in expectations like so someone's thinking like, oh, no, Darius, you're you're either said, you're amazing at this or I think you're amazing at this. And then I'm thinking like, oh my gosh, like, I really like that I don't think I can I know I got some liberty, but I can't do that, or I've tried that. But then that doesn't, that doesn't feel great for me. And like, I'm gonna do my best to close that gap by being transparent of like, can I just check, you see me to think I'm gonna do X Y Zed? I mean, I'm up for trying it just to like, I've never done that before. Like, is that okay? Like, do you want to get someone else in? who's done it? Or like, Are you up foot? And I'm no, great. Let's try it. Again. For me. It's just creating space to fail, like so. I mean, it's good that you asked me a question, I hadn't really realized, I think that's a very big part of it for me is being okay with failing, because then it takes all the pressure out, I don't need you know, it doesn't work, it doesn't work. We'll we'll we'll adjust well adjusted, we'll figure something out from that. So, so those two pieces of of what does good look like so I can have a good conversation or assessment together with the other person? Okay, am I a good fit with it and expectations? Said, and just making sure it's best to fail. Like I don't perform well, in situations where everything has to go, right. You know, in terms of being perfect, or, you know, I was doing I was doing some you know, I do a lot of speaking and presenting and I think I think, good and do those bits, quite mostly a big event quite high profile. And I'd been at this event for a couple of years running. And about half an hour before the event. They said, Oh, here's your script. I never used the script. And I and as it turned out, I'm terrible with the script. Like, I know, I always covered all the key points. But it was, you know, that goes into too much detail there was there was a sort of a lot of it's quite a public high profile event and one of the people there the scrutiny all the night, you know, it's like, you have to say this and you must, you know, say, a you're giving to ministry half an hour before the event like that. Be I am terrible, with a script, like I don't know. And I started to try and remember all the words and like, there wasn't even an auto he wasn't even asked if I've ever used an autocue. But like, I was just awful in that and just felt so constrained. So I didn't like it. I said yes. Because that like it was didn't seem like there was much opportunity to say anything else. But I was really stilted in my delivery, I wasn't enjoying it. Until thankfully, one of the key people that I actually the key person that we'd had the script in the first place had got delayed and couldn't turn up at the event at the time. They were supposed to be there. So we had to go off script at that point. At which point is like everything started working fine. I go through the script always like Okay, great. Let's, you know, could probably talk again and engage them was like, Oh my gosh, thank goodness for that. So that was a that was a, a I don't know if that's quite impostor syndrome, but a learning for like you have this conditions which can support me doing things well. And conditions which don't really being alive to that. And then if I'm in those good conditions, and I don't mind what happens if I fail, I fail, but when I'm out of my element, and that just it was it felt awful to be standing on the stage in front of you know, several 100 People that are high profile event. And at least to me performing well below what I wanted. And I think what was needed I think was pretty righted pretty rubbish job actually, to be to be frank, up until the point everything went off schedule. At that point, everyone started panicking, like, oh my gosh, how are we going to fill we got 20 minutes, we got nothing like, oh my goodness, now I can just make you know, I can just, I can feel 20 minutes, like it's gonna be nothing and it was gonna have the best time. And everyone thought I was amazing at that point, partly because I probably did such a bad job up to that point. And then by by comparison, everything suddenly went went really well. So sorry, I've been a bit rambley Tell me tell me what you've is anything useful? Or what I've said or kind of what have you got? What have you got from that? Yeah,

  Ryan Casey

  so the the aspect of you allow yourself room to fail is a thing that I struggle with. If I fail, it's like a big deal. It's huge. It's, you know, obviously is a is a path to learning. Like you can't learn without failing. Pretty much. I know that and I do it myself. I fail a lot and learn from it. But it's it's still a big deal. Even the smallest of like mistakes or failures is still huge for me.

  Darius Norell

  So I'm curious about, like, what do you hear me talking about and say, Okay, I love it. Like, it's nothing like what happens for you.

  Ryan Casey

  Jealousy? I have to say, I wish a failure wasn't as big as I make it out to be. So, yeah.

  Darius Norell

  Can you imagine that? I've had some big failures.

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, I mean, everyone, literally everyone does it. Everyone fails massively from time to time. But, yeah, we all get wrapped up in our own heads over. And it's hard to get out of.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah, I mean, let me take away that time to time I'm failing every day. Not I don't say practically everything. That's a bit that's a bit too strong. But I'm continually in, like, oh, you know, partly, I'm always trying to stretch myself like, so I'm always I'm always attempting things which are outside my ability, right. So that leads to a lot of failure. Because I'm interested in learning and growing and really seeing what's possible, I'm open to I'm more capable than I realize. And then if I get to find out what my capacity is, is to do things that I think I can't do, or I think there's no way. Now amazingly, a whole lot of times, it actually works, but I can do stuff that really seemed impossible. But most of the time, guess what the things we've seen when possible in that moment, they turned out possible, or at least not for me, like I couldn't, I don't know how to do it. But I learned a whole load a lot along the way. So that's, that's, for me, that's a really important potent part of me, like in terms of how I approach the world, and how I can feel relaxed in the world, because I am not ashamed, you know, if I am not one of those people that is able to sort of repeatedly deliver without making a mistake, like you could give me a, you know, a simple task, or even a relatively, you know, like, whatever level of task and be like, Okay, do that 100 times in a row, I'm not that person, like, I ain't gonna mess up. Like even even really trying, I'm gonna mess up like that, I'm just not set up for that kind of consistent performance. Like it doesn't, it just doesn't, you know, and if that's what's needed, like, day in, day out, that's not going to be a good fit. What I have a great fit for is, yeah, boundaries, real difficulty, real challenge, lots of intensity, or kind of, oh, my gosh, how we're gonna, how we're going to do this, like, I can rise to the occasion, you know, for a few times. And then it's like, okay, great. Like, I did what I needed to do for that. And now I'm, you know, and lots of times I mess up, but and being able to recover from that, and that not be the end of the world. Like, I'm not, you know, I'm much more comfortable in those situations. So maybe I'm, I'm, as much as I'm also looking for what's good. We talked about the setup of like, okay, what's good here? I'm also feeling into, how is how, okay, is it if I mess up? Like, what's your tolerance for failure, if I'm with a client, or an organization, or someone, and they've got a lot of anxiety about like, this is really got to go? Well, you know, and you just can't mess up on this one, then I really do my best to find space to put them at ease. Look, this may not go exactly perfectly, but just trust it's, you know, those bumps actually will be really helpful to build relationship or show what's you know, so I try and if I if I if there is opportunity to help that person have a bit more space, so that I can have more space, and it'd be okay to mess up because I do. And that's, I love the fact I mess up. But sometimes the mess ups No, that'd be your job, right? You got your job, someone made a mistake, and you got your job place. Amazing things happen from mistakes. And that, you know, that person who sent me that job could be going oh my gosh, I shouldn't have done it. No, I'm not gonna let you apply, you know, they could carry that really heavily and yet we've got this beautiful outcome of you got this what sounds like a wonderful experience that's been covered a really crucial time and been incredibly positive and nurturing and, and families were healing. I don't know if that's if that's okay or not, but it's like it feels like it's a healing experience to be working, contributing, with an employer that sensitive and able to use your brilliant skills and qualities.

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's a very good word actually healing. It was a very healing opportunity. From is a horrible job to unemployment to go into that it was it was perfectly timed in a way where it was exactly what I needed.

  Darius Norell

  Anything else you'd like to ask? And it could still be on impostor syndrome. Like if you don't feel like I've covered that, or there's other things like, Yeah, well, what about this? I'm happy to stay with it. And I'll be a bit more succinct, or anything else that you'd like to inquire about or ask about?

  Ryan Casey

  No, I think that impostor syndrome, conversation was really good. Actually. I'm always interested in hearing people's like perspective on it. Because so many people have it and suffer from it day to day without without telling people and I think obviously, like I said before, mental health needs to be talked about more. And imposter. Imposter syndrome is part of mental health. So yeah, the more we talk about it, the less stigmatized it is, the more we can deal with it and cope with it.

  Darius Norell

  Yeah, so that's actually given, you know, sort of sparked another thought, which is, so if we take impostor syndrome and take that as a sort of almost a literal thing, like, it's almost like I'm feeling I need to pretend to be someone that I'm not. And so if we let go of the pretending and just go, okay, like, this is me. I want to do a good job. If I'm not the right person might Don't use me like, well, I'll get out of the way or five. And I also when they find me, like, I'm, I, if that's if that's the, you know, I'd rather not pretend because pretending is exhausting and effortful. And, like this idea of I'm going to be found out I was like, no, like, this is me. Like, this is what I've got to bring. He's remembering energy and bringing commitment to learn. I've got I've done this before, I haven't done that before. Like, how's that, as you know, is that is that workable? What do you want to work with that? Great, okay, let's do something or, like, no, that's not what you need right now. Okay. I'd rather face into that. Okay, like, okay, it's not me, like, that's the key. It's not my ideal outcome. But I'd rather have that than having to pretend, oh, then I really can't, and I just didn't, I just had a bad day. Oh, my God, let me have another, you know, it's like, oh, my gosh, I that's to mine, I would find that it's just too much to carry. I'd rather face into my difficult situation of okay, yeah, I got to do some work to get up to a certain level of standard. If I want to be engaged in that kind of thing. Or there's something else for me to go out and find that I've got capacity to do that. It's going to be a better fit for someone like me. So that's, I don't know if that's too simplistic, just really. Just noticing anytime that pretense starts to come in, go, like, No, I'm not up for that. I just bring that into the open. And if it's a material issue, great, well, I'll clearly I'll need to do something else. And if it's not material, great, I can just be, I can just not pretend. And then that, for me brings a level of ease, you know, thinking that back to mental health and like they can relax and be happy and peaceful rather than in these tight moments, which can easily, you know, once we start playing around in our head, like, oh, gosh, and then we start noticing and our brains are greater than finding things to support ideas we've gotten suddenly find more evidence like, oh, they said this, does that mean, they think they're doubting my ability? Like, No, they wouldn't? Oh, they didn't give me that assignment. Does that mean they think they think now I'm no good as well, you know, and suddenly built up this picture that has a lot of energy and intensity, that is that kind of it only goes downward unless we take a really, you know, a moment to to reframe, or step back or somehow kind of go okay, like, what's going on here is this doesn't feel great. I needed to your point, I need to talk about this end with someone or maybe more than one person to help me get a sense of how I can be out of this loop or or spiral. So does that does that help? Or how did you hear that?

  Ryan Casey

  Yeah, that does help. I think that will take a lot of practice to, to be into that situation, like mindset and situation. So hopefully, I can kind of get there at some point. Yeah, that was good.

  Darius Norell

  Cool. So let's do a little reflection. How's the conversation been for you?

  Ryan Casey

  Yes, it's actually really good. I was. I'll be honest, I was a little anxious about coming on. I didn't know what would we really be talking about? So yeah, but it's some really good conversation today.

  Darius Norell

  Thank you, although you've been an amazing guest. Give me some feedback as a you know, using your experience as a podcaster. You know, I'm relatively new to this. What tips can you give me your feedback? Can you give me

  Ryan Casey

  I think I think a big part of podcasting is just keeping the conversation flowing. And you've done that. It's we've been talking pretty much nonstop. And yeah, just just great conversation. If you have a great conversation with someone, you've got a great podcast. Easy as that.

  Darius Norell

  I love it. Well, that's a nice way to finish. And I feel like this has been a great conversation. Honestly, Ryan, thank you so much for taking the time being so generous in sharing so much of yourself. And yeah, I think there's a lot here for people to take inspiration from get heart from and yeah, thank you for being you and sharing so much of yourself.

  Ryan Casey

  Thank you for having me.

  Outro

  Darius Norell

  So reflecting on that conversation with Ryan and I think I use the word sincere to describe him and wanting to learn and for me that really came across and just just such a heartful showing of himself and now know what you how you found it. Like for me, it's like wanting to learn wanting to understand. And for me, that's just such a positive. Like, I'm working with scientists. No, it's like, it puts me in a really towards date. Like if someone just really committed to learning and sharing and self aware and yeah, I just, I find myself very open, wanting to support wanting to help and I think historically of being unemployed, incredibly touching, and many, many 1000s hundreds of 1000s of people have been in that situation over the last couple of years. So I hope you found it, sort of heartwarming healing. I'd love to hear your comments and also thoughts tips on impostor syndrome. Did I did they help with what I shared? Did I miss it? It's it's such a common topic and I I'd love to hear people's thoughts and ideas on it. I look forward to seeing what you're taking from it.

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